Curse

Yoom Omer · Oct 06, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

"Dear players, it seems there has been a bit of a misunderstanding between our Community Managers and the committee in charge of selecting and evaluating the submissions for the Henchman Skill Bar contest.

We apologise for the inconvenience. We are currently discussing the most appropriate course of action: whether to improve the AI according to the bars posted, or apply small changes to the builds to make them more suitable for henchman use, or issue another contest while letting the winners keep their prizes. Whatever the decision, rest assured we'll get back at you within the next few days with a solution that will hopefully make everyone happy. "

Would you vote me as a community rep? =P

/winthread.

I would. You see, this whole lack of communication problem is caused, well, by lack of communication. How hard can it be for Regina to answer those unanswered questions that are flooding the forums? How hard can it be to scan the wiki once in a while providing responses to interested guys...

Accepting the failure, however, is harder, and since the CR guys don't do the first two, I have no reason to believe they'll do the third one.

A.net screwed up. It happens. It shouldn't happen, but every man screwes up. Even in big companis, consisting of way more than the five people currently in the live team, mistakes are being made.

The difference is in the way of reacting to the failure after it's been made.
Instead of accepting the mistake (and clearly some mistake has been made - or that the guidelines were wrong or the judging was sloppy), Anet's CR guys chose to throw excuses at us, like some kind of smokescreen.

A mistake was made. I doubt Regina/Martin can miss it.
Something must be done - a course of action needs to be taken. Not doing a thing is of course an option, but is considered the worse by mot, I think. I think Akraxle only mentioned some ways to act, and I'm not sure they are all fair.

For some reason, some precentage of the community understood that builds have to be original. It might or might not be based on martin saying "Builds have to be original.". Either way, This precentage is high. This misunderstanding doomed their builds not to win - Everybody knew he could put some gimmicky build - its just that martin canceled the option it'd win.

Also, Since no change to AI was mentioned, I, Among many others, chose to consider the incompetent AI and built a build that could work with the current AI.

So, as usually, the choice is within Anet grasp. Whether they leave us annoyed, or they'll invent some serious solution, the ball is in their field.

Fril Estelin · Oct 06, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

One tiny thought in passing, hoping people will read it with a calm mind:

Our CMs, and maybe even devs, may feel much more enclined to come on this thread if they feel that it's not a battleground, "them" against "us", but rather a place where serious issues can be discussed peacefully, even if tension and emotions are high. Bear in mind Anet is busy, Martin got back from the land of Ice for example, Linsey is busy with the next big thing, etc. They can't simply drop everything and run here.

Create the context for a cool, reasonable discussion and there shall be one! We need to create a win-win situation, which is not the case with a "them against us" environment. No need to be aggressive or put people on one side of the other.

There are really some people making some true efforts to communicate calmly, with Inde and JR leading the way, but if there's more of that, it may prove to Anet that communication on this thread is not only POSSIBLE, it's DESIRABLE.

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Perhaps if you got yourself an editor...

Oh you RED ENGINE GOer. The full stop was there to emphasise the apology; in Italian you don't use capitals after a colon; at->to was a mistake indeed ^^; and it's not "keep" because they're not happy atm!

P.S. Do I pass the mirrorclimbing test?
P.P.S. I'm a developer not a writer, you insensitive jerk

JR · Oct 06, 2009, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Oh you RED ENGINE GOer.

Tsk tsk. Hardly the temperament for a community manager.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

The full stop was there to emphasise the apology; in Italian you don't use capitals after a colon

This is not an Italian audience!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

and it's not "keep" because they're not happy atm!

'Make you happy' is stronger language than 'keep you happy', as it implies that you expect your solution to change the emotion of the reader. People subconciously object to that notion, as it is both condescending and presumptuous. It also recognizes that your community as a whole is not happy, thus justifying anyone who otherwise would have believed their discontent to be an individual experience. Conversely, 'keep you happy' lightens the mood by assuming that people, in general, are content.

;D

Dwaynas Hot Friend · Oct 06, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Our CMs, and maybe even devs, may feel much more enclined to come on this thread if they feel that it's not a battleground, "them" against "us", but rather a place where serious issues can be discussed peacefully, even if tension and emotions are high. Bear in mind Anet is busy, Martin got back from the land of Ice for example, Linsey is busy with the next big thing, etc. They can't simply drop everything and run here.

Not meaning to be rude or anything, but I must say it. CR's come to these pages to view the problems and understand the issues, and learn how they can be resolved. They come here because that's their job - and seeing that there is a lot of disputes on this page, I believe they watch this page regardless of all the crap that is going on. One would not like to view all of this, but its their job and whether they like it or not they do it. They don't have to answer however, but they are always viewing situations like these.

In saying that however, I wholeheartedly agree that we need to concentrate on the issue which is the Henchman Skill Bar contest, although I and obviously and rest of the viewers here need responses form the CM's and find out what's been going on. There's been an issue clearly, but the issue is being, not ignored...but... overlooked somewhat.

These rules about how the CM's can only say so much is totally screwed so we are left with no answers, because it would be a violation of their rules for their job in answering until they are given the green light go.

ANet, do you see the flaw with the Henchman or is it exactly the way you want it? Are you willing to accept that this would take months of debugging and precious time from all your resources that you barely even have? Remember how you always say that your resources are limited, and tackling something on a large scale is almost impossible for the GW live team? One moment you tell us you cannot tackle something so large, and the next minute you turn around and work on something huge, leaving us in the dark.

Give us an answer and tell us what is going on. Make us understand what is going on, where we are headed. We might be acting childish, but please don't throw that childish attitude back at us and ignore what's going on.

Thanks for reading, I hope we can learn what is going on in the near future.

Fril Estelin · Oct 06, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwaynas Hot Friend

I quote this from Linsey's page still:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Linsey_Murdock/FAQ

"Why aren't all the questions on this page answered? Why aren't you answering questions on your talk? Why are you being so inactive?
A: Right now Live Team is in crunch mode on the April build. Some days I don't even have time to eat or sleep, so finding time for the wiki is tough. You guys should be going to Regina more than me right now, since she is the Community Manager and this is more of a side-project for me."

I'm not one to point and argue, but April was a while back.

People, listen to this very, very carefully: Anet is made of normal people, they have lives and events sometimes influence your work (and I know that Anet is keen on its employees having a good RL, which is probably why the company is so good).

I don't remember when exactly, but I'm sure that since April, Linsey had a series of events in her RL that justified her being late with her work. Between Gamescon and PAX, Martin and Regina have been working relentlessly for the promotion of GW2 (and preparing comunity management, see latest entry in Regina's journal). Regina was here in this thread during the weekend. Robert, who just joined Anet, spent part of his weekend too on this contest. I bet the list goes on and on.

It's easy to say "here is what I'd do if I were Anet", but none of us knows what's happening (or need to for that matter) and understands the intricacies of their job.

Come on, be more understanding, tune down your emotions for just a little while, be patient, and we may get something sometime later this week. The issues pointed here are still very much relevant, but it's about the tone of the thread, not its content.

snaek · Oct 06, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by meridon

Easiest way for Anet to treat this pvp henchman fiasco is to just treat it like they treated XTH: Remove it from the game, claim that you're "working on it, but can't promise that it returns". Then, just never let it return when the community has forgotten about it. Requires no apologies from ArenaNET, and gives yet another easy excuse to not be working on skill balance or a PvP Love update. Hence, "To XTH something".

i would have to agree; just let it die and start focusing on giving us the test krewe and sealed deck already. tbh, i'm not sure why the henchies were picked before the test krewe; i'm certain the test krewe could have done a significantly better job at judging and selecting the winners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fril estlin

People, listen to this very, very carefully: Anet is made of normal people, they have lives and events sometimes influence your work

true, but bad choices are still bad choices, i.e. you do not make promises that you know you cannot keep. all i'm going to say is: know your limits.

FoxBat · Oct 06, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I think them re-doing the contest at this point is unlikely and even unwise. They didn't break any "rules" with martin's misleading post, but they would be if they suddenly nulled their contest and dragged this out further. Really the chances of any one of us who submitted AI-friendly builds being picked are small. It's a monumental effort/mess to just pick another 40 random winners, not worth it.

At this point I just want them to reconsider how trash the bars are and fix/redesign them. The winners still get their names and tonics so they shouldn't feel too insulted.

Karate Jesus · Oct 06, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i would have to agree; just let it die and start focusing on giving us the test krewe and sealed deck already. tbh, i'm not sure why the henchies were picked before the test krewe; i'm certain the test krewe could have done a significantly better job at judging and selecting the winners.

^ This.

Let's move on already. I'd like to see some of that ridiculous shit-list get done rather than them wasting more time on stupid stuff like excusing away their own follies.

How much is still on that list that we've seen/heard nothing about again?

XTH
Sealed Deck
HB/TA removal (if they do that this week w/o warning us.....)
Live Test Krewe
Halloween Contest
Halloween Content
Wintersday Content
Skill updates (we're supposed to hear in advance now, remember? When was the last time we had one?)
PvP skins
GvG Tiebreaker
New mAT schedules
JQ/FA bug fixes
New HoH maps
Syncing RA (which obviously wasn't fixed)

And a large part of that is contingent upon the Live Test Krewe....which isn't done yet.

Chthon · Oct 06, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

In before the lock I guess....

1. It's obvious to me that a-net screwed up by announcing rules for the contest totally inconsistent with the rules the contest was judged by. But I don't care.

2. It's obvious to me that the winners received a very significant unfair advantage because of the confusion over the rules. But I don't care.

3. It's obvious to me that many of these bars are so poorly suited for the hench AI that they will be useless. This is a problem. Insofar as it's possible, the AI should be improved to use the skills properly. Where that's not possible, skills will have to be replaced; and sometimes entire bars when key skills aren't hench-friendly.

In short, fix the hench so people can use them, and who cares about the silly contest.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Oct 06, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i would have to agree; just let it die and start focusing on giving us the test krewe and sealed deck already.

/agree... I think at this point everyone understands what happened... and its best to look forward to Test Krewe, SD replacing TA/HB, XTH and the last few batches of skill balencing... this is about to be locked soon anyways... so lets all look forward and not back to this contest...

afya · Oct 06, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

/agree... I think at this point everyone understands what happened... and its best to look forward to Test Krewe, SD replacing TA/HB, XTH and the last few batches of skill balencing... this is about to be locked soon anyways... so lets all look forward and not back to this contest...

yes, forget this darn contest, but don't look forward to anything else.

Winterclaw · Oct 06, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Clear miscommunication between Martin and whoever picked the winners. Martin made the (smart) point of encouraging original and non-meta builds, which was then entirely ignored by those choosing the winning bars. Possibly he has a greater understanding of how AI works in the game than the judges do?

Possible. But it could also have been politics. If he said most popular wiki builds win how do you think everyone would have reacted? Do you think people would have even bothered?

Quote:

A lot of people here are waaaaaaay too vitriolic, constantly on the offensive and looking for any reason to smear ArenaNet. It's boring, tiring and immature. At the same time, ArenaNet is not making much effort in trying to improve that. They are not actively participating in the community, giving people the benefit of the doubt, admitting mistakes, or making a real effort to understand concerns. Communication is always the bare minimum, almost always reactive not proactive, and largely cold and professional in tone.

Good point. The fans, myself included, are a little to hard on Anet but on the other hand it would be wrong to blame everything on the community as Anet does have its share of deficiencies as well. If they just asked for something close to the wiki builds that the AI would be able to run from the beginning I think that would have saved them about 14 pages of angry posts.

Going on to the lack of communication on Anet's part, I really don't think it is going to improve that much. Regina is likely handcuffed as to what she can say and the people who've handcuffed her probably won't let her say whatever because they gave her communication rules for a reason. Likewise she is only a rep and I think that she shouldn't be the one to do the apology nor does she know the technical goings on or why the design team is doing what it is doing.

Anyways I think Anet is missing out on something more important here. Supposedly GW2 is getting closer and closer to coming out. Anet either intentionally lied to us about what they wanted to do with the contest or realized they couldn't back up their promises and opted not to tell us ASAP. This is bad customer service either way and will effect people's decisions to get the next game.

Imagine this scenario:
GW2 is coming out and Anet runs a contest to develop PvP henchmen bars. Winners get a free copy of the collectors edition. The rules are just like the ones of this contest: original and something that the AI'd be able to play. The winners pull meta builds off of PvX2 and get their dances, minis, etc. If you worked hard to follow the rules wouldn't you be pissed when you saw GW2 on the shelves and think twice about picking it up when right next to it is the new D3 or the new race of SC2?

Fril Estelin · Oct 06, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

From Linsey's wiki talkpage (exactly what I was saying above):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linsey

I'm just spending every moment I can stand to working on our active projects so they can be completed. If I don't have the luxury of getting a weekend off and instead worked until 2am on Saturday and am right now still working since Sunday afternoon (almost 24 hours straight), then I really don't have time for lengthy wiki discussions. Sorry guys, but the work takes priority right now. We can scream at each other later once I've gotten the chance to breathe. Oh, and I've known that someone had gotten UWSC down to 7 minutes for a while now, I just didn't use that as the example because it's a very rare occurrence, not the norm. - Linsey Murdock talk 23:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

"Dear players, it seems there has been a bit of a misunderstanding between our Community Managers and the committee in change of selecting and evaluating the submission for the Henchman Skill Bar contest.

We apologise for the inconvenience. We are currently discussing the most appropriate course of action: whether to improve the AI according to the bars posted, or apply small changes to the builds to make them more suitable for henchman use, or issue another contest while letting the winners keep their prizes. Whatever the decision, rest assured we'll get back at you within the next few days with a solution that will hopefully make everyone happy. "

Would you vote me as a community rep? =P

Probably. It depends on what the solution is and how long it took to implement it. Either way, what you have given us here is far more than what we have received. All we have received are answers that don't answer anything and large amounts of attempting to dodge everything.

But I suppose people realize this by now and have taken the stance to just let it go. Fine...but at least we know the truth of what happened here. We also know it has happened before and we are pretty sure it will happen again. I suppose you are ok with that and life goes on.

Painbringer · Oct 06, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Can't say I disliked the contest I submitted my build (only one) did not win. Really not mad not upset. And I guess not sure why everyone is going crazy over it. These are henchmen. So you are missing one guy in your group and can't wait any longer to fill the spot... well now you have a henchmen to grab. I really see no advantage to much of a degree I see more of a disadvantage. Granted they are faster on the reflexes but targeting and following commands will be the trick. Its added content of some degree maybe not what you want. It was a contest nontheless and people are getting a prize for it hats off to you if you won

stanzhao · Oct 06, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

i havent read all the posts, but have refrained from posting anything so far, but it has been bugging me, so if this has been said already, then my apolagies.

my main point is not the fact that the winning bars were pvx shite etc, but the fact that i myself, and many other people were thinking of viable bars that henchmen could run. the the AI would be able to use. regardless of the originality etc, a current hench wouldnt know how to use an infuse bar.

so why, after the contest has ended, are they saying that the AI will be update to fit the bars? surely that defeats the whole point of the contest, as i could have submitted anything, then expected the AI to be reworked around it.

is each hench going to be equipped a seperate set of AI? or are some updates going to mess up others skill usage?

i mean, there are so many holes in this contest its rediculous. i was intentionally happy that this contest was going on, it seemed like a real effort from anet to start to get the community to help with ideas and get them involved.

but the point of just taking any old bar and saying your going to update the AI after... kind of defeats the point... its just a big clusterfest of shit that didnt go as planned

Shadowspawn X · Oct 07, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Come on, be more understanding, tune down your emotions for just a little while, be patient, and we may get something sometime later this week. The issues pointed here are still very much relevant, but it's about the tone of the thread, not its content.

1) Why are you being such an apologist? The community was misled nothing more to say. there is no further input coming from Anet period.
2) What the heck do you keep bolding all the proper nouns for?

king swift · Oct 07, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Looking at the skill bars, im wondering why i spent soo much time making mine UNIQUE!!!

slowerpoke · Oct 07, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I have a feeling any points raised on Guru are simply filtered out by the CRM, thus anything said doesn't matter. Didn't they say this forum isn't representative of the playerbase as a whole?